Alister Cameron // Blogologist

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Mike Guglielmucci, Todd Bentley… repentance starts with the leaders!

In my last post I tried to express the point — which I believe with all my heart — that the senior men of God around a leader who falls must be called to account. I know that’s painful and I know that could sound like a big call from a little guy.

On June 23rd, a bunch of the most senior men of Pentecostalism and the Charismatic movement gathered around Todd Bentley and — whatever it was they thought they were doing — endorsed, commissioned, blessed and promoted Todd in his ministry at Lakeland, Florida. If you missed it, here it is:

A number of leaders felt that a lot was wrong with that meeting. A lot. It amounted to Todd’s dad publicly handing him a credit card with no limit and telling all present to let him buy whatever he wanted. Many leaders felt this was not what the meeting was there to achieve, and did not want leaders who — implicitly — represented them, speaking on their behalf in such glowing fashion about Todd, and so fully and freely endorsing his ministry.

Among these is Dutch Sheets — the man with the name only an American could be given! — a man I have a great deal of respect for. His concerns and grief became public a few days ago — curiously, the same day all this stuff emerged about Mike Guglielmucci. Dutch wrote an open letter (which at present is plastered across the front of his site).

It is a long and impassioned appeal to his fellow senior leaders in the Pentecostal and Charismatic movements in the US and beyond, and it MUST be heard by leaders here in Australia. In the hope that my little blog reaches some of them who may have missed Dutch’s letter in the midst of all the noise surrounding the Guglielmucci matters, I reprint a portion of it here.

I urge you to read it. I urge you to be prayerful. I remind you solemnly that this is a very senior Christian leader in public repentance. This is a man doing what in Bible times would have looked like a bloke walking around in sack-cloth and ashes, refusing to eat or bathe or smile. This is serious stuff, because we are in a watershed season for this branch of the Body of Christ. Please hear that, folks.

Here’s what Dutch wrote:

The fact remains, however, that we have failed the Lord and His people in many ways — not just with Lakeland but in countless other situations — and must repent if we are to be trusted in the future. And as you also know, no repentance is effective if watered down and couched in excuses, therefore, I intend to be brutally honest:

  1. We, the leaders of the charismatic community, have operated in an extremely low level of discernment. Frankly, we often don’t even try to discern. We assume a person’s credibility based on gifts, charisma, the size of their ministry or church, whether they can prophesy or work a miracle, etc. (Miracles and signs are intended to validate God and His message, not the messenger; sometimes they validate the assignment of an individual, but never the person’s character, lifestyle or spiritual maturity.) We leaders in the Church have become no different than the world around us in our standards for measuring success and greatness. This has contributed to the body of Christ giving millions of dollars to undeserving individuals; it has allowed people living in sin to become influential leaders — even to lead movements, allowing them influence all the way to the White House.Through our lack of discernment we built their stages and gave them their platforms. We have been gullible beyond words — gullible leaders producing gullible sheep.

    When a spiritual leader we’re connected with violates trust, is exposed for immorality or falls below other accepted standards of behavior, it does not exonerate us simply to say we don’t condone such behavior. Those we lead trust us to let them know whom to trust. We have failed them miserably in this regard.

    For this lack of discernment, and for employing and passing on inappropriate standards of judgment, I repent to the Lord and ask forgiveness of the body of Christ.

  2. We, the leaders of the charismatic church, spin our involvement and fail to acknowledge our responsibility when other leaders fall — all of which stems from our self-preservation and pride. Enough of the spin — we’re no different than Washington, DC. Every time another embarrassing and disgraceful situation is exposed, the dancing begins. It seems that no one bears any real responsibility except the man or woman who actually commits sin. Incredibly, we even blame “revival” itself — the pressures, attacks, weariness, the “revival is messy” argument, etc., saying it is responsible for the failures. This is disgusting. Those of us on boards of fallen leaders, those who helped give them a voice, put them on TV, published and endorsed their books (yes, I have), etc., are not exonerated simply by saying we don’t condone the wrong behavior or that we didn’t know. We’re supposed to know.

    I don’t believe anyone is expecting perfection from us — I know I’m not. We’re far too human for that. But we are expected to have enough humility to look the world and those who follow us in the eye when we miss it and say, “we were wrong and we are sorry.”

    Our careless accountability has caused the body of Christ to be spiritually raped and abused. It has produced disillusionment and brought immeasurable reproach to our God and cynicism to His message. Concerning Lakeland, what was called the “greatest revival since Azusa Street” has become possibly one of the greatest reproaches. We, the leaders of the charismatic church, are responsible.

    For not accepting and acknowledging our responsibility, for caring more about our own reputation than Christ’s, I repent to God and ask forgiveness of the body of Christ.

  3. Our procedures and standards of accountability are incredibly inadequate. We have provided camaraderie, not biblical accountability. For those on Todd Bentley’s board who had previous knowledge of his marriage problems and said nothing, it was more than a mistake — it was reckless, foolish, and irresponsible. For those on the stage the night of his aligning and commissioning who knew and said nothing — ditto. For those there who didn’t know, my question is, “Why didn’t you?” You were trusted to know. That is one of the purposes of public commissioning and the purpose behind the concept of endorsement. I’m not trying to point the finger; I’m endeavoring to get us to be honest about our failures — we have serious credibility issues. Have I ever laid hands on, commissioned or endorsed anyone without adequately checking them out? Yes, but you better believe I’ll be more careful next time! And we must not single out Lakeland. We’re all guilty.

    What about the leader in my city who ran with some of the leading spiritual fathers in our nation — sincere and good men, I might add, and not all “charismatic” leaders — who sang his praises and helped build his stage — all while he was doing drugs and having sex with other men? But we shouldn’t blame only the high profile cases — what about those of us who unknowingly have had adulterers on our staffs or appointed elders that turned out to have compromise in their life? Sounding familiar yet?

    This is so epidemic that every member of the body of Christ stands guilty — what pastor or leader did you follow that turned out to have sin issues? What ministry did you support that was unworthy? There is plenty of blame to go around. The big question becomes not “who do we blame” but “how do we fix this mess?”

    Leaders can live in sin — adultery, homosexuality, financial wrongdoing, drugs, etc. — for years without it being realized. They can offer completely unacceptable lifestyles for the body of Christ to follow and still keep their TV programs and lavish lifestyles. In the name of grace, compassion and forgiveness we have lowered the standard so much that often there isn’t one. We have bought into the lie that true discipline is “shooting our wounded.” We have made a mockery of biblical restoration, making “ministry” — not healthy individuals, marriages and families — its ultimate goal. The fact is, integrity matters. No, we don’t need legalistic, pharisaical standards, but we must have standards. For this lack of biblical accountability, I repent to God and I ask forgiveness of the body of Christ.

  4. We, the leaders of the charismatic church, have built on hype, sensation, innovation, programs, personality and charisma. This has produced: shallowness; false movements; novice leaders — gifted but immature and untested; a deficient understanding of God’s word; the building of man-centered rather than kingdom-centered churches and ministries; competition rather than cooperation; humanistic, self-centered Christians who don’t understand sacrifice and commitment; Christians without discernment; superstar leaders; a perverted and powerless gospel; prayerless and anemic Christians; a replacement of the fear of the Lord with the fear of man; and a young generation that is cynical of it all. We are responsible, not the devil; he takes what we give him.

    For this compromise in the way we build, for giving the Church watered-down wine, commercial Christianity, a flashy but weak Church and hype disguised as anointing, I repent to God and ask forgiveness of the body of Christ.

Galatians 6:1-5 is an appropriate reference with which to end this statement: “Brethren, even if a man caught in any trespass, you who are spiritual, restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness; each one looking to yourself, lest you too be tempted. Bear one another’s burdens, and thus fulfill the law of Christ. For if anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing, he deceives himself. But let each one examine his own work, and then he will have reason for boasting in regard to himself alone, and not in regard to another. For each one shall bear his own load.” NAS

My passionate prayer is that God honors this repentance — I believe He led me to do it and therefore, will — and uses it to begin a process of cleansing and healing for all of us. In order for the coming great awakening to bear maximum fruit we must have both, as well as a course correction that sets us on a path of wisdom leading to life. There is no doubt that past moves of God have been aborted, ended prematurely and contained error or heresy that have wounded, if not destroyed, many. The Healing Revival of the ’40s and’ 50s, the Charismatic Movement, Discipleship Movement and Jesus Movement are all examples. My heart is to help shape a movement, the fruit of which will last for decades — better yet, forever. And I have great expectations for us — I am not a cynic.

My passionate prayer is also that Todd Bentley’s marriage survives and thrives — that he turns his heart fully toward Christ and toward those with whom he is aligned, and allows them, as God leads, to put him on a path of complete restoration. I thank God for those who were touched by the Holy Spirit at Lakeland and while watching it on God TV and the web. May we all move forward into all God has planned for us in this awesome season of endless possibility.

With great hope,

-Dutch Sheets

(You can also download an MP3 audio of Dutch talking about the Lakeland Revival.)

This is EXACTLY the spirit in which — as best I could — I wrote my last post and the sort of sentiment I was trying to express. But I cannot say what a leader like Dutch can say, and I urge you to read this carefully, and the full version as well.

If you have been “close” to the ministry of Mike Guglielmucci or others closely associated with him, and you are in a great deal of pain, grief, confusion and anger right now, please read these words as spoken to you. I do not expect them to make things suddenly better for you, but I would ask you to understand that the Lord DOES know what’s going on, and he is doing a deep redeeming work in the entire movement. There is a pruning going on, and a sharp blade hurts, but it cuts cleanly.

(I’m hoping my next post will be a transcription of a wonderful message by Art Katz, which I mentioned in my last post. I’m doing that myself and I’m awfully slow.)

 Mike Guglielmucci, Todd Bentley... repentance starts with the leaders!

61 Comments

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  1. Bill C
    Posted 5 years, 11 months ago // Permalink

    If it looks like a fraud, and smells like a fraud, then maybe it is a fraud!

    I believe that Todd Bentley is a Warlock, taking instructions direct from angels of light (Lucifer, demons etc.).

    2 Cor 11:13-15 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.

    Todd has carried out all his “BAM power” ministry in the name of Jesus, but make that a false Christ:

    Matthew 24:24 For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect–if that were possible.

    The devil puts on a good show to entice, and Todd has represented the devils way well by satisfying the desires of the flesh for physical sensations, visions, etc.

    2 Thes 2:9-12 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

    I believe the “bride of Christ” is being enticed to fornicate with demons.

    Take heed Christians, and repent quickly if you have been involved with “charismatic fornication”, as it is unclean before God.

    Jesus said “a wicked and adulterous generation asks for a miraculous sign” (Matt 12:39).

    Does “asking for a miraculous sign” demand a performance from God just like the pursuit of supernatural experiences such as being “slain in the spirit”, “Toronto Blessing”, heavenly visitations and visions, etc.?

    The Bible does not endorse people directing the Holy Spirit or teach methods to repeatedly make supernatural experiences or events occur.

    The desire to have experiences could be a self indulgent avoidance of what God really wants us to do.

    When this disobedience and lack of discernment are combined, people may easily accept counterfeit phenomena from the Devil, eg.:

    2 Thes 2:9-12 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness. -

    Could Christian fellowships become dens of the occult with things like body vibrations, howlings, apparitions, and visions given by demons?

    The seeking of experiences could be an attempt to treat the Holy Spirit like a circus clown or temple prostitute for personal indulgence.
    All these wrong things may be tolerated because there is no fear of God and poor discernment:

    Prov 1:29-31 Since they hated knowledge and did not choose to fear the LORD, since they would not accept my advice and spurned my rebuke, they will eat the fruit of their ways and be filled with the fruit of their schemes.

    If we are truly “hungry for God” we should only do things the Bible specifically affirms, such as repent of sins, develop the fruit of the Spirit (love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control – Gal 5:22-23), worship and appreciate God, endure through trials, help people, read the Bible, share the true gospel, etc.

    Signs, wonders, visions, and other supernatural experiences are God’s business according to his agenda.

    Seeking them is unsafe.

    Todd Bentley and all his mentors should repent of their witchcraft.

  2. S. Kys
    Posted 5 years, 11 months ago // Permalink

    will God apologize for these leaders? He endorsed one of them–Mike Guglielmucci’s ministry produced fruit. Fruit does not come from the devil. Fruit cannot come from man. That is God’s endorsement. Did He “not accurately discern” what this man was doing? Of course He knew. If God Himself was allowing Mike G. to contribute to His Kingdom in such a way, why would we want to hold earthly leaders who in no way contributed accountable for this? Even if the “gift of discernment” was not being used as it should have been, was the Holy Spirit not there? was God not speaking to His church?

    I for one believe that God still speaks today. I believe that HE is in control. I believe that He could have and would have told SOMEONE what was happening if that was what needed to happen. And it seems that He may have told someone… Mike Guglielmucci. He confessed by his own free will. He decided that it was time for the lie to stop.

    What do we think?

  3. Jayson
    Posted 5 years, 11 months ago // Permalink

    I am new to the Todd Bentley thing. I read what Dutch Sheets had to say about it. I was forwarded this today which is Bill Johnson talking about Todd Bentley.

    What do you think of what he says?

    http://www.ibethel.org/features/sermonoftheweekvideo/?sermon_id=138&format=&quality=high

  4. Bill C
    Posted 5 years, 11 months ago // Permalink

    Michael Guglielmucci seems another manifestation of fraudulent Christianity.
    He doesn’t need any sympathy, he just needs to be stripped of the “high life” that goes with being a religious fraud.

    He may come right if he wants to come right, but who knows, maybe he is browsing pornography while I write this. Maybe he is hanging out with whores, etc.

    Why believe his confessions and explanations now? (He has been lying for years.)

    Time will prove whether he intends to change for the better.

    He has brought disrepute on God’s name by being a persistent liar to people who accepted him in good faith and gave him money, etc.

    However the people who followed him are also part of the problem.

    People should learn the skills of being discerning, and stop idolising church celebrities (the Bible calls it idolatry).

    Michael’s situation is a manifestation of a false “prosperity gospel” that is championed by the likes of Brian “You need more money” and Bobby “Kingdom Women love sex” Houston of Hillsong church.
    Brian’s own father Frank was kicked out of church for sexual immorality.

    Maybe they could blame it on pornography, the Devil, etc., but excuses for sin never worked with God, so church leaders should stop promoting the excuse industry.

    Churches like Hillsong are mostly tax free entertainment businesses with the name of Jesus Christ glued on top.
    They earn millions, give away thousands, then keep the rest to grow their empires with expensive church buildings and the managers often living a hedonistic lifestyle, supposedly a blessing from God, but actually a contradiction of the Bible.
    The 3 G’s (gold, girls, and glory) usually overtake church leaders who allow themselves to be seduced by worldly ways and ignored warnings like:

    1 John 2:15 Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For everything in the world–the cravings of sinful man, the lust of his eyes and the boasting of what he has and does–comes not from the Father but from the world. The world and its desires pass away, but the man who does the will of God lives forever.

    “The lust of his eyes” part covers the pornography aspect well.

    The whole distortion of what “grace” means and the mantra “nobody is perfect” has duped Christians to put their guard down and permit sins.

    The “fear of the Lord” is missing:

    Prov 14:27 The fear of the LORD is a fountain of life, turning a man from the snares of death.

  5. S. Kys
    Posted 5 years, 11 months ago // Permalink

    Bill C, was that a response to my previous comment?

    God knew disrepute would come when He chose us to be his light in the world. I bring disrepute to His name, and so do you. Mike G. is no different. He was just a dick about it.

    However, I know many well discerning people who followed AND BENEFITTED FROM FOLLOWING his teaching.

    How can we as outsiders judge these people? Well, the only thing we can judge is fruit! And Mike’s ministry did produce fruit. I told you about how good God is to use Mike for His purposes, and you seem set on telling us how bad Mike is. We know he’s bad. We all are. You don’t have to convince us.

    I want to know what you think of my original statement. Do you believe that God is still the force behind the Body of Christ? Because in accusing a large (fruit producing) part of His Bride, you unwillingly cast doubt on the very cause you yourself stand for, because if we follow your conclusions to their end, it is that God has lost control. How does that benefit us? no fruit will come from that to be sure.

    We’re all in this together. God has used the worst of us to show us how good He is since the beginning. And now you feel the need to bring division for the sake of what?? Are you defending God? I believe He is well able to defend Himself.

    What do we think?

  6. Posted 5 years, 11 months ago // Permalink

    Though I wouldn’t consider myself a charismatic, I’ve posted today about Bentley, miracles and healings in general, from a somewhat different perspective. Thought you might be interested.

    Grace and Peace,
    Raffi
    Parables of a Prodigal World

  7. Gray
    Posted 5 years, 11 months ago // Permalink

    What can we learn from this?
    a) Our faith is in Christ, not man. Man may fail, Christ never will.
    b) Some doctors being frauds doesn’t stop us from visiting those who aren’t – why should this stop me attending my church where my Pastor is a faithful man of God?
    c) As to how could nobody have known – well Jesus knew his treasurer was a thief but it was all part of a bigger plan – so maybe He has a bigger plan in all this..

  8. Bill C
    Posted 5 years, 11 months ago // Permalink

    To S. Kys:
    >> Bill C, was that a response to my previous comment?
    Not directly, it was my opinion about the Todd Bentley event, which is currently getting blog time simultaneously with Mike G.

    Should we judge these people?
    Maybe God used them?

    Well sometimes the Devil indirectly gets used to refine people by the trials and temptations he causes (eg. Job), but all credit to the people who faithfully endure and God who helps them, and none to the Devil.

    The Devil still goes to the lake of fire.

    I don’t want to join him through being seduced in to any of his counterfeit movements, and I feel to warn others with what I have discerned.

    Following is a topic “cast the first stone” that might help explain my strong critique of these “Christian ministers” and their movements.

  9. Bill C
    Posted 5 years, 11 months ago // Permalink

    Cast the first stone?

    John 8:7 “If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her.”

    This is about killing an adulterer (stones were for executing a death penalty).

    Rather than kill, we are called to judge believers guilty of immorality.

    1 Cor 5:12-13 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked man from among you.”

    We are called to judge each other correctly, without being hypocritical (log in the eye).

    When correct judgement is made about a situation, then repentance is possible.

    If Michael Guglielmucci’s “worldly reputation” is destroyed through exposure of his sins, there is a possible good consequence, as the Bible warns all of us that being popular with “the world” can make you an enemy of God:

    James 4:4 You adulterous people, don’t you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.

    If losing a “worldly reputation” contributes towards becoming an authentic Christian, then you have gained something that is eternal.

    My proposal is that churches like Hillsong (“head office” of Mike G’s church) are oriented towards a false Christ through preaching a false prosperity gospel (where grace for forgiveness has been replaced with grace to be rich in all the things of the world (money, possessions, etc.).

    This is exactly the opposite of what the Bible recommends, so those false institutions and their practitioners should be exposed.

    Hillsong doesn’t have a Biblical defence, they just have lawyers and “communication managers” (spin doctors) as per the way they are trying to cut themselves free from Mike G.

    They are just trying to protect their worldly reputations, which is worthless, according to scripture.

  10. Annette
    Posted 5 years, 11 months ago // Permalink

    Bill C – this is an emotive issue, but your recent posts actually made me gasp aloud at some of the things you say – Mike has publicly admitted his wrong – the details may never all be public and don’t need to be, but to say what you said is just, well, in really, really poor taste, no matter how you dress it up with righteous indignation.

    We all need genuine grace and mercy… please make your points without more attacking commetns on others.

    peace

  11. S. Kys
    Posted 5 years, 11 months ago // Permalink

    thank you Annette. and well said.

    Bill, Jesus prayed specifically for you, me, Hillsong church’s pastors and leaders, Mike Guglielmucci, and everyone else in the Body of Christ. It was in John 17: “My prayer is not for them (the disciples) alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one…”

    All of our “denominations” today have points where we differ. No one of them is wholly correct, but every one of them is correct if they have continued to make their main aim to exalt Jesus. We can have our differences, but we are still one Body.

    Jesus calls us not to “warn others” about the differences, but to join with the very people who have those differences in exalting the name of Jesus. Jesus continued, “that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in You. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.”

    Sometimes, I think we don’t want to distance ourselves from leaders who mess up because they have given GOD a bad name, but because we believe that they have given US a bad name. But our reputation comes from what we do in a time like this. We need to remember that we are the same breed as the world. Humanity needs Jesus. WE need Jesus. The only time we can KNOW they are watching is when someone messes up. Will we send them the message that we have nothing to do with messed up people? Or will we send them the message that messed up people have a place to find grace and forgiveness, and that place is still the Church?! That is how Jesus prays the world will come to know Him. By seeing us all in Him together.

    Hillsong is distancing itself from Mike… We are distancing ourselves from Hillsong…

    Let’s all come together! We are one Body, and let’s not let one person’s faults bring us further apart! Through these situations, we can see the big picture more clearly –we’re all a bunch of people who mess up and who need Jesus! Jesus told us the answer was to have unity in the whole Body, so let’s do that.

    who’s with me?

  12. Bill C
    Posted 5 years, 11 months ago // Permalink

    To: S. Kys, Annette

    Mike G’s sins are no small matter, and the Bible has precedent for harsh measures such as casting people out of fellowships (1Cor 5:12-13), handing them over to Satan (1Cor 5:5, 1Tim 1:20), etc.

    The only truth that Mike G has spoken recently is that he is a liar with considerable experience, and I am wary of confessions coming from people like that.

    We mustn’t be naive.

    My strong statements won’t be seen as “poor taste” by all the people who have been defrauded by Mike G.
    I think you are not being wise in sympathising with the criminal. Spend a bit more time considering the victims, as you might be one of them one day.

    Having said that, my original post asserted:

    “Time will prove whether he intends to change for the better.”

    Maybe he cannot, because he has operated in the system of lying for so long.

    All will be revealed in time, this applies to all of us.
    Luke 8:17 For there is nothing hidden that will not be disclosed, and nothing concealed that will not be known or brought out into the open.

    Beware of trying to give special favour to “fallen Christian celebrities”.

    Once stripped of his celebrity robes, Mike can join the queue of ordinary folks who have done wrong.

    I have doubts about any Christian celebrity, as they operate from an unsafe place that provokes idolatry and pride.

    >> Let’s all come together! We are one Body, and let’s not let one person’s faults bring us further apart!

    Don’t agree with that, S. Kys, as I do not believe UNITY is the priority.

    TRUTH is the priority, and that is why Jesus has put it against his name “I am the way, the truth, and the life”.
    When unity is made a priority, then truth is ALWAYS compromised. This is how deception has got in to the churches.

    It is difficult to have unity in Christ when false Christs are involved as well.

    The Hillsong type system that Mike G was involved with mainly promotes a false Christ of worldly ways.

    For them “praise the Lord” means “Praise the money god”. Just like the Israelites worshipping Baal.

    If you don’t like that discernment, then don’t agree with it.

    But just keep it in mind for future times in case the Christian system you are following collapses around you when more frauds are discovered, etc.

    Or when the false “Santa Claus Jesus” promoted by Brian Houston fails to work for you.

    When that happens, then my advice is go back to the Bible to reconnect with the authentic Jesus Christ.

    When your dark day comes, don’t abandon the faith, just find comfort from counsel such as:

    2 Cor 1:3-5 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of compassion and the God of all comfort, who comforts us in all our troubles, so that we can comfort those in any trouble with the comfort we ourselves have received from God. For just as the sufferings of Christ flow over into our lives, so also through Christ our comfort overflows.

  13. Jen B
    Posted 5 years, 11 months ago // Permalink

    Thank you thank you thank you Alister Cameron. At last an apology from a man of God I do respect for his humility and authenticity. Thank you for making this available for us to read and make some sense of the fraility of great men who have made wrong decisions. Accountability is what the church needs more than ever before. Our superficial world has crept into the heart and soul of our churches and it breaks my heart. If we can’t be real with those closest to us who can we be real with? We end up not being real with God and ourselves which is the greatest tragedy.

  14. S. Kys
    Posted 5 years, 11 months ago // Permalink

    Mike C., it is obvious that you are against me, and against a large part of Christ’s Bride. And in being against Christ’s Bride, you are unknowingly against Jesus Christ Himself. You can quote scriptures all you like, but the one time that Jesus prayed specifically for us, He prayed for unity. His other responses and statements were aimed at people then, and must be interpreted by us (or bible translators and preachers, as is usually the case). But the one time he prayed for us SPECIFICALLY, he prayed that we would be one. There is no need to reply, you’ve already made it clear that you disagree. I just wanted to share my sadness, and hopefully encourage someone else to stay away from the judgmental hypocrisy, such as yours, that is tearing the church apart. Mike Guglielmucci may have done a stupid thing, but you promoting the message that you seem so happy to promote will do far worse damage to the Kingdom of God. You are allowing yourself to be a wedge that satan can easily use to divide.

    We must unite with all those who claim Jesus is Lord if we ever hope to win this world for Him.

  15. Bill C
    Posted 5 years, 11 months ago // Permalink

    S Kys.
    >> it is obvious that you are against me, and against a large part of Christ’s Bride………..
    Not against you at all. I am only debating the topics.

    >> There is no need to reply, you’ve already made it clear that you disagree

    I will reply to a new accusation “you are unknowingly against Jesus Christ Himself”

    I will also reply according to free will to do so, because the topics are URGENT.

    Jehovahs Witness church members claim to have “unity in Jesus Christ”
    Do you have unity with them?

    It is difficult to have unity in Jesus Christ if there are different interpretations of his teachings. Whenever unity is prioritized, then truth is ALWAYS compromised.

    Unity should be applied in the context of good and evil, truth and falsehood.
    Paul emphasized separating from false brethren:
    1 Cor 5:5 hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord
    1 Tim 1:20 Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme. Also 1Cor 5:1-2.
    This is applied to Christians who preach false gospels and commit sexual immorality.

    Sobering isn’t it?

    S. Kys
    >> Jesus calls us not to “warn others” about the differences, but to join with the very people who have those differences in exalting the name of Jesus.

    We SHOULD warn others:
    Ezekiel 3:17-18 “Son of man, I have made you a watchman for the house of Israel; so hear the word I speak and give them warning from me. When I say to a wicked man, ‘You will surely die,’ and you do not warn him or speak out to dissuade him from his evil ways in order to save his life, that wicked man will die for his sin, and I will hold you accountable for his blood.

    We SHOULD separate from them, not join with them.
    Rev 18:4 Come out of her, my people, so that you will not share in her sins, so that you will not receive any of her plagues.

    S. Keys:
    >> You are allowing yourself to be a wedge that satan can easily use to divide.
    No, actually I believe GOD wants us to SEPARATE from false church systems so that we will not share in their punishment.
    Their activities defame God’s name, and they cause harm by their misleading teachings and spiritual impartations (Kundalini spirit stuff, “Toronto Blessing”, Todd Bentley “BAM power”, etc.).

    When the Bible warns of “false Christs” (eg. Matt 24:24) it could be a metaphor as well as physical people, and the consequences of both are identical.

    A “false Christ” could be a SYSTEM OF TEACHING that misrepresents the true Jesus Christ.

    Hillsong is a rebranding of a church started by Frank Houston who was eventually found out for sex perversion (homosexual acts).

    There is something wrong when EVERY leader exits in scandal, and “the world” easily concludes that Christianity is a fraud.

    Why is it that in New Zealand the last 4 HEADS of the AOG church have been kicked out for immorality? (Or they sneaked away before it became public knowledge.) One of them was Frank Houston. See http://www.christian-witness.org/archives/cetf2002/acchd02.html and http://www.christian-witness.org/aog/pf_emails.html

    The consequence of people who follow a pure gospel are the “fruit of the Spirit”.
    The mixed gospels produce fruits of the sinful nature.

    Gal 5:19-24 The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires.

    Brian Houston IMPLIES and MODELS that the fruit of the spirit is a worldly prosperous life with abundant money and possessions.

    He might have started out OK, but he has been seduced by worldliness and adjusted the gospel to suit: “grace to have a prosperous life”, rather than “grace to repent of sins”.
    Sins are viewed as negativity that can be overcome with positive thinking.
    Mike G may be a consequence of this false gospel.
    Joyce Meyer, Benny Hinn and many others vigorously preach and practice this gospel.
    Brian Houston WILL end up in immorality if he follows the family trend, either the Houston family, or the AOG family.

    I think this could be averted if he is able to break away from the false prosperity gospel and return to the true gospel. The business driven church system will tend to encourage false gospels (attracts more “clients”).

    I have participated in such things previously, but no longer, after I compared the consequences I observed with explanations and warnings in the Bible.

    A false gospel leads to a false Christ, and a false Christ leads to the lake of fire UNLESS people’s eyes are opened and they separate from the mixtures.

    Sadly, for many, they will be unable to separate from the mixture because worldly pleasures are so addicting. The prosperity gospel has encouraged them to be seduced by the “whore of Babylon”, even though they might continue to be “nice people”, continue to “praise the Lord”, and encourage people to “follow Jesus”.

    Rev 18:3 For all the nations have drunk the maddening wine of her adulteries. The kings of the earth committed adultery with her, and the merchants of the earth grew rich from her excessive luxuries.”

    Luke 8:14 The seed that fell among thorns stands for those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by life’s worries, riches and pleasures, and they do not mature.

    The Bible warns against compromise and MIXTURE as DEADLY: Just a “little bit” of Baal worship was never accepted from the Israelites. Check the warnings to the 7 churches in Revelation Ch 2 – Ch 3.
    Gal 5:9 “A little yeast works through the whole batch of dough.”

    Adultery is a kind of MIXTURE. (sharing affection with another). How about Christians committing adultery with “worldly ways”, against the warnings?
    1 John 2:15 Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For everything in the world–the cravings of sinful man, the lust of his eyes and the boasting of what he has and does–comes not from the Father but from the world. The world and its desires pass away, but the man who does the will of God lives forever.

    The prosperity gospels and the mantra “nobody is perfect” have been used to justify “a little bit” of adultery as permissible (whether spiritual or physical).

  16. Kev
    Posted 5 years, 11 months ago // Permalink

    This doesn’t seem right AT ALL!!! It reeks of christian leaders who have taken the gospel and twisted it to fit their own desires. Can someone explain to me what ‘you welcome the glory as well as anyone I have seen’ means?

    I tell you what Todd Bentley didn’t look like a humble man of God being released to serve in ministry. Rather he did look like someone who had received a blank cheque to do with with what ever he pleased.

    This just doesn’t sit right with me at all.

  17. S. Kys
    Posted 5 years, 11 months ago // Permalink

    you’re probably right

  18. Posted 5 years, 11 months ago // Permalink

    The sad thing about this is that it works against the true stories of pain and suffering, sickness and healing. What about those who truly have cancer and a real story to tell? And those who have been healed of other sicknesses and injuries.

    Someone I was speaking to yesterday actually wanted to withdraw their information online about their own personal healing because they were worried that others might see it as a scam, instead of the truth that it is.

  19. Phil A
    Posted 5 years, 11 months ago // Permalink

    what Bill has posted has made me think/study…
    quite powerful…
    Why do we make excuses???

  20. Bill C
    Posted 5 years, 10 months ago // Permalink

    We can’t judge the heart of church leaders (or each other), but we SHOULD judge the preaching and practices. The trend is that leaders in these false gospel systems start dabbling in sins.

    They do it for years, as Mike G did, because of a cover up system that is continually preached (“don’t have a critical spirit”, “don’t speak against God’s anointed”, etc.).
    Benny Hinn now curses anyone who challenges his practices – see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43kf1fZIdrs

    New Zealand AOG superintendent Frank Houston was a secret sodomite for 30 years before he was exposed. See http://www.christian-witness.org/aog/pf_nh.html and http://www.christian-witness.org/archives/van2003/bilby_restor16.html

    Church people are bleating that God has “grace” for this secretive practice of continuing in sins.
    The bible rather indicates that we should discern and expose it:
    Eph 5:11 Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them.

    Another warning:
    Matthew 18:6 But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.

    There’s no “fluffy grace” in that statement.

    The true meaning of grace has been exchanged for a licence to sin:

    Jude 1:4 For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

    They mention Jesus Christ in name, but their preaching and practices represent a FALSE Christ.

    “Praise the Lord” sounds fine, but which Lord?

    To answer that you have to examine the overall emphasis of the preaching and practices.

  21. Jaguar
    Posted 5 years, 10 months ago // Permalink

    Without trying to be judgmental, isn’t it true that power spoils? Think of Bush, Howard or the leader of the “Family First” party – they are supposed to be Christians but do the most unChristian things. So is there a way to liberate Christina churches from this? I can only think of one – those who still hold it should abandon the claim for holding ultimate truth. Most churches claim they are better than others and collectively many Christian still claim them possess more truth than non-Christian religions. I think it’s time to abandon such fraudulent claims. Another think is, if you decide to donate money to the church, make sure you know where it goes and you can trace how it’s spent. Don’t believe claims that “God requires tithe”. This is the only way for Christians to become servants of others, ratehr than rulers and colonisers.

  22. Kev
    Posted 5 years, 10 months ago // Permalink

    My question is where are Planetshakers in all this? While it may be true, to blame what Mike G did on an illness seems an all too easy cop out. Where was the accountability? Why didn’t any of the leaders spot anything in his behaviour?

    While Planetshakers didn’t cause Mike G to do what he did the structure of the church especially it’s leadership certainly didn’t help with detecting this sooner.

    Russell and Sam Evans owe a far more decent explanation than what they’ve given which so far as I can tell is just merely stating what Mike G has told. Though I’m not going to hold my breath.

    I just wonder whether this will make them wakeup and start applying real changes that allow leaders to be nurtured and anointed not because of their surname or charisma but because of their character is one that reflects God.

  23. Posted 5 years, 10 months ago // Permalink

    @Kev – my feelings pretty much exactly. Sometimes people are culpable for their silence. But we need to continue to be patient. I dunno for how long… but lets wait a little longer… :)

  24. prav 0099
    Posted 5 years, 10 months ago // Permalink

    we are all humans yeah? And we all do mistakes, you cant expect anyone to be perfect. read matther 18:21-22,Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?”
    Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times. So basically what that means is no mater how many times you sin the Lord will always forgive you. Mike.G and todd bently are all human like me and you but they made a mistake and they admited it and so what we must do is forgive them and still have respect for them cuz when the Lord forgives us he wouldnt say ‘you sinned there for your not my son’ Jesus would never say that, so we need to learn to forgive, Yes it will take some time but never talk ill of the people who have fallen, we should try and pick them up not mock them and spit at them, remember in the bible the Lady who commited adultry everyone threw rocks at her but Jesus went and carried her and forgave her, We should be in the image of Christ walk in his footsteps and try to follow Jesus. So brothers and sisters dont mock anyone just because they sin its hard to forgive but WHAT WOULD JESUS DO??? Think about it

  25. prav 0099
    Posted 5 years, 10 months ago // Permalink

    Kev thats everyone belives Mike G so noone doubted Him hense they didnt try to see whats wrong but they tried to make life better for Mike G Christians dont find fault they correct it the problem and try to make life better for one another. Yes people make mistakes deal with it Pray about it and ask God to help you in that area of your life, Being a christian isnt easy whoever told you that its lie. do you think it was fair for Jesus to get nailed on that cross for our wrong doings???

  26. Paul
    Posted 5 years, 10 months ago // Permalink

    You can judge the faith by its fruits, I guess. There are 2 good books which can be recommended as a comment to this discussion: “A Life of Unlearning” by Anthony Venn-Brown (Australian, available at most public libraries) and “Crazy for God: How I Grew Up As One of the Elect, Helped Found the Religious Right and Lived to Take All (or Almost All) of It Back” by Frank Schaeffer (American).The former is about an Assemblies of God pastor who didn’t want to live a lie and how his own church treated him as a result, the latter about the author’s first hand experiences of growing up as “evangelical royality,” founding the Religious Right, experiencing his own faith crisis, and how he put his life back together again.
    Blessings to all.

  27. Posted 5 years, 10 months ago // Permalink

    @Paul – You can’t just drop a name like Venn-Brown in there like it was some very balanced and reasonable book that all here should read. Fair go! Venn-Brown is a gay-rights crusader who sees no issues with Christianity on the one hand and an active gay lifestyle on the other. A lifestyle he pursued by leaving a wife and children behind. Without wanting to assassinate the man’s character, I think one can safely say he is “way out there” and it is disingenuous not to say so.

    As for Frank(y) Schaeffer… I need to catch up on him. I have about three or four of his old books… from the early 80s when he was all angry and hot-under-the-collar.

    (I lived with his sister Susan and her husband for a very short while at l’Abri in Switzerland.)

    Where I disagree with him is in the very suggestion that he helped found the Religious Right… he did nothing of the sort. He was an also-ran. Last I heard he’d gone Orthodox…

    Either way, you’re recommending two *very* colourful and chequered individuals there…

  28. Paul
    Posted 5 years, 10 months ago // Permalink

    Cameron – with all respect, why shouldn’t everyone read Venn-Brown? Not everyone will agree with him, that’s granted, but to have an opinion about something (ie. agree or disagree) you have to be acquainted with it first. The book was recommended to me at a Yahoo! group about modern theology and it seems to be an interesting voice in the discussion. Many conservative churches put their members (not only pastors) in a similar predicament – should they be living lies or accept their sexuality? Unfortunately some churches have a lot of catching up to do. I don’t think he would have left his wife if he hadn’t been pressured to get married in the first place. Personally I see no issues whatsoever with Christianity on the one hand and an active gay lifestyle on the other either (you really have to stretch the Bible a lot to find it anti-gay!). I haven’t read Schaeffer yet, but from the blurb and the fact that he lectures in some interesting openminded churches I think he at least deserves the benefit of the doubt.

  29. billcnz
    Posted 5 years, 10 months ago // Permalink

    Paul – you can believe whatever you want about anything, because free will is the environment of the gospel. But be prepared to accept the consequences of what you believe.
    The Bible gives consistent teaching on topics, then gives warning of false teaching about the opposite.
    Some false teachings may lead to damnation, so it is better to be safe than sorry.

    Michael Guglielmucci’s situation may be a symptom and warning of a false gospel being preached in a church system.
    False/mixed gospels create beliefs in false Christs.

    1 John 2:18 Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come.
    Matthew 24:24 For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect–if that were possible.

    Here are 6 examples of false Christs represented in false religions of today:

    1. The “New Age” / Hindu “divine Christ of enlightenment”.
    Google “divine Christ of enlightenment”.

    2. Roman Catholic “Eucharist Jesus” who is converted back to flesh when the priest casts a spell on the communion wafer. Google “Eucharist Jesus”

    3. “Charismatic Christians” following a “Kundalini Jesus” who entertains them with sensations, manifestations, slain, drunkenness, heavenly visitations, etc. – see http://www.newchristian.org.uk/kundalini.html, also Google “Kundalini Jesus”

    4. Wicca Jesus (occult Jesus) see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Wicca

    5. “Prosperity Jesus” who “graces” you with sensual indulgence and worldy prosperity. See http://www.christian-witness.org/aog/hillsong3.html and Google “prosperity Jesus”.

    6. “Flexi-Jesus”. This is where people make up their own Jesus to suit anything else they want to do, eg. homosexuality, abortion, euthanasia, “situation ethics” morals, etc.

    It is simplistic to say we can have all have unity by believing in Jesus. Which Jesus? We can’t even trust visible “manifestations” of Jesus, as it could be the devil in disguise (angel of light – 2Cor 11:14)
    A white gown, a glowing blonde wig, and a soothing, encouraging voice will be an easy trick.

    It won’t be good enough to “throw a dice and pick a Jesus” because of the warning:
    Matthew 7:22-23 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

    We follow the TRUE Jesus Christ by following ALL the BIBLE COUNSEL and teaching WITHOUT COMPROMISE, using a reasonable, in context, interpretation.

  30. Paul
    Posted 5 years, 10 months ago // Permalink

    billcnz,
    Let me explain why I disagree a little. The Bible is far from consistent on many topics. No wonder, it consists of many books written and redacted by many people over a long time. In addition, most of us do not understand original languages and rely on translations, which are already interpretations in themselves. Further, we do not have original biblical manuscripts and those manuscripts we have tend to vary occasionally, sometimes considerably. Finally, different churches have different canons of both Hebrew and Christian Bible – including Orthodox, Coptic, Ethiopian etc. – most protestants recognise the Catholic canon (approved under political pressure from the emperor Constantine) without realising it! Therefore while I take the Bible as a primary source and treat it seriously, I don’t think it excuses me from thinking and using commmon sense (there are a lot of “terrible texts” in the Bible after all!). I could never believe in a God that gives us reason and common sense in order NOT to use it. I would agree with you on some of the “false Christs” (not all!), but we all have the right to choose what we believe, and of course we can’t have unity by just believing in Jesus and without applying common sense. When searching for Jesus, I find the work of the Jesus Seminar scholars extremely valuable. And by the way – never in the Bible does Jesus speak against homosexuality, so please be careful with your judgments. There is only once instance in the Hebrew Bible that treats male homosexuality as a transgression (apparently being lesbian was OK!), but it’s next to the prohibition to wear garments made from 2 different types of cloth. The New Testament does not mention homosexuality at all (except some bad translations of the Pauline letter corpus).

  31. Kev
    Posted 5 years, 10 months ago // Permalink

    Paul your standpoint is symptomatic of many today who try to use the Bible to justify an immoral and corrupt lifestyle. It’s true Jesus never spoke out against homosexuality but nor did he ever speak out against rape, incest or paedophillia. Does that mean that he condoned this?

    If you think that you have to ‘stretch’ the Bible to find that it is anti gay read the following; Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13, Romans 1:18-32 and 1 Corinthians 6:9-11. Reading these verses I think it is pretty clear where the Bible stands on homosexuality.

    You say that Schaeffer has lectured in interesting open minded churches. One problem with that is that the Bible never says for us to be open minded, in fact it says that we are to be transformed by the renewing of your mind.’ Romans 12:2.

    Paul you can keep lying to yourself or others to try to justify your actions but at the end of the day a true follower of Christ will not carrying on living a lifestyle that they know is wrong.

  32. Paul
    Posted 5 years, 10 months ago // Permalink

    Dear Kev, I think you have totally misunderstood what I said. I never defended anything immoral or corrupt. By the way, the tex from Lev. is strictly about gay sex… obviously authors of the book didn’t mind a lesbian romp! Or maybe never heard about female homosexuality at all. Puzzling to those who take the Bible as God’s last word! The New Testament texts you quoted do not refer to homosexuality as such at all. Please read a good translation of the Bible (not one that’s already a denomiational comentary) and also read bishop John Spong’s “Sins of Scripture – Exposing the bible’s Texts of Hate to Reveal the God of Love”. The “Old Testament” accepts polygamy and slavery. Is that what God accepts? Why does God detest people who wear clothes made from two different kinds of cloth? Jesus taught a religion of love, not hate, as well as tolerance and peaceful coexistence. That’s why a Good Samaritan whas a hero of one of the parables – Samaritans were heretics and blasphemers to Jews, but to God creeds and religions do not matter. Consider Matt 7:1-5; and also 7:12 – it sums up all of Jesus’ teaching and religion beatifully.

  33. george
    Posted 5 years, 10 months ago // Permalink

    “JUDGEMENT IS MINE SAYS THE LORD.”
    even when the prostitute was CAUGHT IN THE ACT and brought b4 the the Lord He said he who has no sin let him be the first to cast the stone. and again he said “neither do I condemn thee”.

    if u r spiriual pray for the restoration of our brother and watch less you also fall. mind u spiritual people can fall although that should not be the case.

    God bless you

  34. billcnz
    Posted 5 years, 9 months ago // Permalink

    Condemnation is a point of no return, judgement is being found out with the possibility of repentance and forgiveness. Jesus judged the woman and commanded her to go and sin no more (John 8:11). Casting a stone means giving a death penalty. We are discouraged from giving each other the death penalty but encouraged to judge each other correctly so that repentance is possible.

    It is possible that GOD handed Michael Guglielmucci over to immorality because he persisted in preaching/representing a false gospel and wasn’t fearing the Lord.
    There is precedent for this:
    2 Thes 2:10 They perish because they refused to love the truth
    2 Thes 2:11 God sends them a powerful delusion
    Romans 1:25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie
    Romans 1:26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. (homosexuality).

    [Paul, homosexuality is wrong because it is SEX PERVERSION. There is no good future for men chasing each others rear ends – it is a psychological malfunction that results in dangerous diseases and no reproduction. Homosexuality is an affront to God’s creation of male and female (Adam and Eve) as specified in Genesis. You can interpret the Bible differently if you want, and therefore accommodate people involved in perversion, but I believe that will be disastrous. Are you following “Flexi-Jesus”?]

    The principle is that if you deliberately commit yourself to compromise of the truth, then God may hand you over to something disgraceful, to be a warning for others.

    This may explain why the last 4 heads of the AOG church in NZ exited in immorality (homosexuality/adultery/money theft).
    See http://www.christian-witness.org/docs/openletaog1.doc

    The lesson may be that we should examine ourselves that we are not being witness of a false interpretation of Jesus Christ to suit ourselves or others. That is following a false Christ.

    Prov 14:27 The fear of the LORD is a fountain of life, turning a man from the snares of death.
    Prov 16:6 Through the fear of the LORD a man avoids evil.

    It is a dangerous thing to lead a church system that misrepresents Jesus Christ.
    Brian Houston of Hillsong is in danger for misrepresenting the gospel (promoting a false “Prosperity Jesus”), and may be handed over to immorality in due course if he doesn’t repent.

    Or he may partner with others and do the groundwork to usher in the end times antichrist who will seduce the entire world through “world peace” and prosperity enticements:

    Rev 18:3-4 For all the nations have drunk the maddening wine of her adulteries. The kings of the earth committed adultery with her, and the merchants of the earth grew rich from her excessive luxuries.
    Then I heard another voice from heaven say: “Come out of her, my people, so that you will not share in her sins, so that you will not receive any of her plagues.

  35. Paul
    Posted 5 years, 9 months ago // Permalink

    billcnz, you are certainly entitled to your opinion, however homosexuality is natural, is not a perversion (you have no proof except for your private uninformed opinion) and it is NOT wrong). What IS wrong is presenting your own prejudice as a universal truth (or are you saying God told you that directly?). AOG and many other churches used to condemn dancing and rock music. Apparently there were satanic messages if you played your music backwards (I wanted to get a CD player that plays backwards but unfortunately couldn’t find any). “Christians” were not even expected to watch movies! Now all this is accepted, and in 10, 20, maybe 40 years we will be laughing at those intolerant of homosexuality decades before – sooner or later all churches will have no choice than accept it.

  36. Kevin
    Posted 5 years, 9 months ago // Permalink

    Paul how can you say that the new testament text’s don’t condemn homosexuality or are you simply looking for an interpretation of the Bible that ‘condones’ gay sex. And how can you say that Billcnz is presenting a prejudiced view when you are saying that the universal truth is that God condoned gay sex?Where in the Bible do we see it say that gay sex is natural? I mean not to state the obvious but can’t you see how the ‘pieces’ of men and women fit together?

    Read Genesis 2:18-25. If God intended for the human race to be fulfilled through gay sex then he would have designed our bodies to be able to reproduce via both means of intercourse, however it is not. Yes Jesus taught us a religion of love and peaceful coexistence and I will always accept a gay person however, I will not accept their actions such as continuing to live a gay lifestyle.

    Paul I pray that God will open your eyes because clearly you’ve let your own desires get in the way of what God wants and you’ve also contiously looked for interpretations of scripture that supposedly support your view.

  37. Paul
    Posted 5 years, 9 months ago // Permalink

    Kevin, I recommend bishop John Spong’s “The Sins of Scripture. Exposing the Bible’s Texts of Hate to Reveal the God of Love”. If you are interested in the Bible then this book by a leading biblical scholar can really open your eyes, as looks like you tend to take the Bible too literally and not seriously enough at the same time. Also you can Google up what bishop Desmond Tutu, a Christian champion of human rights has to say about homosexuality. I hope you are not afraid to think beyond the dogma that some church leaders are trying to impose in order to gain power to control people. You really have to twist the Bible to find any real condemnation of homosexuality in it, despite the fact that Jesus appears to have remained silent on the issue. But people do it in order to make you afraid “of the other”. Gays, Jews, Muslims – anyone who’s different. Where I come from there even was prejudice against redheads and left-handed people until recently. We just need to grow up.

  38. Posted 5 years, 9 months ago // Permalink

    Without trying to be judgmental, isn’t it true that power spoils? Think of Bush, Howard or the leader of the “Family First” party – they are supposed to be Christians but they do the most unchristian things.

  39. Posted 5 years, 9 months ago // Permalink

    Stephen… by “the leader of the Family First party” I assume you mean Steve Fielding, who is their only “elected” Federal representative at present… in the Senate.

    Anyway, I know of nothing unchristian of which he rightly stands accused, but perhaps you’re an authority there and I am not.

    As for Bush, well, I have to agree with you there. Anyone with their head screwed on has to agree, methinks… I am really disappointed with his many lost opportunities these last eight years.

  40. Posted 5 years, 9 months ago // Permalink

    Paul… very few people would call Spong a “respected Bible scholar”. If you think he is, then you’re made of very liberal stuff indeed. Tutu also is extremely liberal. Respectfully, you’re going to have to work a lot harder than just naming “leading lights” of liberalism, as if that helped your cause at all. The scriptures are clear on homosexuality, and you really have to twist them to get them to say anything else. Now… do you want to get into the Greek and Hebrew to argue that one with me? How far do you want to go?? Fact is, if you’re a liberal then our disagreements will be on fundamentals, and there will be nothing we can say to each other.

  41. Paul
    Posted 5 years, 9 months ago // Permalink

    Alister, to me the term “liberal” in terms of religion has only positive connotations. I am a Christian liberal and proud of it. Converesely, terms “fundamentalist” and “conservative” have a negative meaning to me. Jesus certainly was a liberal and a radical, not a fundamentalist or conservative at all. As for the two theologians I mentioned before, bishop Spong is a memeber of the Jesus Seminar and it’s only blind dogmatics who would not call him a respected scholar! Yes, of course you don’t have to agree with him, but it I hope you can respect not only those you agree with. I don’t quite agree with bishop Tutu, for instance, exactly because he’s not liberal enough (despite how you see him), but have a lot of respect for him. Yes, I can go to Greek, Hebrew, or whatever is required to prove to you that the Bible does not really address the issue of homosexuality at all except to a very small extent, and conservatives blow it out of proportion anyway (probably to cover their own faults). However, whether the Bible addresses the issue or not is really not that important. What is important is that we use our common sense first, and it tells us that it is something we’re born with that cannot be changed. Whether we like it or not. This is the conservatives’ “inconvenient truth”. One of many. As for Family First, I could talk for hours about their unChristian stance. I’d start with their slander campaign against the Greens (the most Christian party in Australia in my opinion) in the federal election, and finish with their voting against the luxury car tax recently. And their funding by shady characters would get some attention too.

  42. billcnz
    Posted 5 years, 9 months ago // Permalink

    Paul:
    >> homosexuality is natural, is not a perversion (you have no proof except for your private uninformed opinion) and it is NOT wrong

    >> What IS wrong is presenting your own prejudice as a universal truth

    Beyond Bigotry
    ===========
    It is not prejudice, it is just firm conviction about universal truth. I disagree with you.

    I believe in following the Bible literally, in a 6 day creation approximately 10000 years ago (using calculation from Biblical genealogy), in all people descended from 2 individuals called Adam and Eve, in a literal parting of the Red Sea (walls of water on both sides and DRY ground in between), the supernatural conception of Jesus Christ, of his bodily resurrection from death by crucifixion, all the miracles documented about him, etc., etc.

    Because of my experience in electronics and software I believe our origins are from INTELLIGENT DESIGN, not random explosions in space, slime, and monkeys evolving over millions of years. Software never evolves by chance. It is a product of intelligent design, and it ALWAYS FAILS if random events occur (eg. hardware faults or viruses).

    It is REASONABLE that an intelligent creator could give us a book called the Bible for guidance, and he COULD deliver it by guiding various contributing writers over thousands of years. He COULD preserve it through attempts to tamper with it.
    I don’t bother with the notion of studying the Greek and Hebrew to have a sure interpretation.
    I just read it at face value from cover to cover on a regular basis and interpret any particular part in the context of the rest of it. I have worked out the resolution of many apparent contradictions in this way, and am convinced it is a supernaturally authored book because of its AMAZING COHERENCY, and its sound counsel.

    2 Tim 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness.

    I believe it is REASONABLE to follow the Bible literally, but accept that many people PREFER to not do that.

    John 3:19-20 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.

    Homosexual lobby groups or individuals often accuse anyone who disagrees with their practices as “homophobic”.

    In doing this they are practicing BIGOTRY by denying a belief different than theirs.

    The Bible repeatedly condemns any sexual activity apart from faithfulness between a man and woman as immoral deviations from Gods design.

    This includes the promiscuities of fornication, adultery, and prostitution, and perversions such as homosexuality, bestiality, and all other combinations that people may engage in.

    The Bible affirms free will for people to disagree with the Bible, or to misrepresent it to suit the way they intend to live, but warns of the consequences.

  43. billcnz
    Posted 5 years, 9 months ago // Permalink

    Tolerance
    ========
    Homosexuality is a NATURALLY OCCURRING sex perversion just as all the other sins defined by the Bible are “naturally occurring”.

    “Naturally occurring” and “normal” do NOT mean right.

    I have no tolerance for homosexuality any more than I have tolerance for lies, theft and murder.

    I accept sins will occur because of free will, but I do not tolerate them in the sense of agreeing with them.

    “Free will” means people can follow false Christs (false interpretations of the Bible), but the Bible contains many case studies of people who deliberately followed falsehood, and the consequences are dire.

    The devil is the author of falsehood:
    John 8:44 He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

    Paul, what might be the consequences if your “liberal” interpretation of the Bible is wrong?

    Deut 30:19 I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live.

    Bigotry is not about having a STRONG CONVICTION of truth, it is simply people DENYING FREE WILL to believe what you will. Theologian John Calvin was a bigot, because he denied free will.

    Paul, are you a liberal bigot?

    There will always be tension between differences of belief and this should be managed appropriately.

    Certainly not the Islamic way of “death to infidels and Jews in particular”, and the lopping of body parts for sins committed.

    God is EXTREMELY INTOLERANT because he is PERFECT, and heaven is perfect.
    We need to be perfect to get to heaven on our own efforts, which we can’t, so God has provided a solution for the dilemma:
    1 Tim 2:3-6 God our Savior,…. wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all men.

  44. billcnz
    Posted 5 years, 9 months ago // Permalink

    Fundamentalism
    ============
    Jesus discouraged stoning to death of sinners (the new covenant relating to his death on the cross was soon to be implemented), but he encouraged correct judgement based on FUNDAMENTAL Biblical moral standard (he was a fundamentalist):
    John 8:11 “Go now and leave your life of sin.”
    He was commanding the woman to stop committing ADULTERY.

    That is a FUNDAMENTAL from number 7 of the 10 commandments: Exodus 20:14 “You shall not commit adultery.”

    “Christian liberalism” (Spong, etc.) comes from a false Christ called “Flexi–Jesus”, a system of “situation ethics morals” of the religion of evolution (humanism) where devices like lies, theft and murder are simply “survival of the fittest”.
    This is why humanists/evolutionists usually support euthanasia and abortion.

    “Christian Fundamentalists” also have “false Christs” running around in their camps (eg. the church systems of Michael Guglielmucci and Brian Houston), and I avoid them:

    Eph 5:8-14 For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light (for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness, righteousness and truth) and find out what pleases the Lord. Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them. For it is shameful even to mention what the disobedient do in secret. But everything exposed by the light becomes visible, for it is light that makes everything visible. This is why it is said: “Wake up, O sleeper, rise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you.”

    Paul, Spong’s ideas aren’t going anywhere except to the lake of fire where all unbelievers, compromisers and the immoral end up:

    Rev 21:8 But the cowardly, the UNBELIEVING, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars–their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

    All this will be confirmed when we die, and then it will be too late to change our minds.

  45. Paul
    Posted 5 years, 9 months ago // Permalink

    billcnz,
    Thanks for your comments. Much appreciated. You admit you are a biblical literalist who believes in a male God who is intolerant, hateful, jealous and monstruos, who likes to be feared and indulges with gambling with his mate, Satan (see book of Job). If there is a God like the one you believe in, I would hate to be with such a God. I’d rather go in the lake of fire. At least I’d be in the company of good people! ;-)

  46. Posted 5 years, 9 months ago // Permalink

    Paul – I’m not at all opposed to the idea that the Greens might well give FF a run for their money in the “Christian” stakes… my problem is that in ANY political party, the best a “real” Christian can do is pick and choose from policies, recognising that overall none of the parties are constituted around deeply Christian ideals… and that itself begs definition, anyway.

    Common sense is not that common. So your comment that common sense tells us gays are born that way is a total nonsense. It’s not scientific, it does not accord with any consensus, and is certainly not common sense. Do YOU think it’s common sense that some men should be “created by God” to perform a sexual act with each other that common sense says is unhealthy and, in fact, dangerous?? Or do you disagree that this is not in fact a common sense assumption?? In favour of what other common sense?

    Abusing Jews was common sense in Nazi Germany. I think you just don’t understand the power of consensual validation to skew the “common” perceptions of truth, Paul. That’s dangerous faith, mate. Much rather you turn to the terribly antequated concept of absolute truth, or is that not “common sense” to you?

  47. Paul
    Posted 5 years, 9 months ago // Permalink

    Alister, I absolutely agree on political parties. It’s just convenient for some to label themselves as “Christian” as they hope to reap benefits by that and get votes from simple folk. To me the Greens ideas mainly agree what I understand as Christian ideals, whereas the coalition’s or FF’s simply don’t. But of course it’s subjective. FF’s original sin is being born out of a church – religion and politics do not mix, and I believe in strict separation of church and state.

    As for common sense… prejudice is never common sense. Sorry, just don’t agree with you on this.

    I don’t see how being gay is unhealthy or dangerous. I also think you haven’t read much about the issue. Otherwise you would know it’s genetic. We simply awaken to our sexuality. Otherwise do you think it’s a choice?

    And sorry again – I don’t believe in absolute truths. I used to, and they’ve all failed and turned out to be graven idols.

  48. Kevin
    Posted 5 years, 9 months ago // Permalink

    Being gay is not unhealthy or dangerous well lets see. 1. Homosexuals have staggeringly high numbers of partners.A study by A.P.Bell and M.S.Weinberg, Homosexaulities: A study of diversity among men and women(New York: Simon and Schuster, 1978) found that 74% of white male homosexuals had had sex with more than 100 partners, 43% had had sex with more than 500 partners and 28% had had sex with more than 1000 partners.2. Sexually transmitted diseases are at epidemic proportions among homosexuals.Straight and Narrow? by Thomas E. Schimidt “It appears that at least 75% of homosexuals are currently carrying one or more pathogens…” Hepatitis: The Centers for Disease Control reports, “Outbreaks of hepatitis A among men who have sex with men are a recurring problem in many large cities in the industrialized world.” Mortality and Morbidity Weekly Report, Sept 4 1998.Syphillis: The Archives of Internal Medicine found that homosexuals acquired syphilis at a rate ten times that of heterosexuals. [Issue 151, 1991]HIV/AIDS: “The Centers for Disease Control reports that, as of Dec.1999, “men who have sex with men” and men who have sex with men and inject drugs” together accounted for 64% of the cumulative total of male AIDS cases.3. There are few long-term relationships among homosexuals.-Thomas E Schmidt, Straight and Narrow?: “Only 8% of homosexual men and 7% of women ever had a relationship that lasted more than 3 years.”-M. Pollak, Western Sexuality: Practice and Precept in Past and Present Times: ” few homosexual relationships last longer than two years, with many men reporting hundreds of lifetime partners.”-David P.Mc Whirter and Andrew M. Mattison, The Male Couple: In a study of 156 males in homosexual relationships lasting from 1 to 37 years, “Only seven couples have a totally exclusive sexual relationship, and these men all have been together for less than 5 years.” -4 There is no evidence to support the “people are born gay” argument.In the Aug. 1991 issue of Science, Simon LaVay of the Salk Institute in San Diego published a study of the differences in brain structure between homosexual and heterosexual men. The study, though had two glaring weaknesses: it was based on a small group of 35 men, with 19 homosexual men who had died of AIDS and the control group of 16 were “assumed to have been heterosexual”. A freshman biology student could destroy this method of study.-In another study psychologist Michael Bailey of Northwestern University and psychiatrist Richard Pillard of the Boston University School of Medicine showed that homosexuality occurred much more frequently among identical twins thaan fraternal twins. But their 1991 study had a major flaw: all of their twins grew up together. The researchers did not compare their findings with a control group of twin raised apart, which would have isolated other factors, such as parental relationships and other family dynamics. Further, only about half of the identical twins studied were both homosexual; if it was purely genetic, the correlation should have been 100%.- Dr Edward Stein, homosexual activist and author of The Mismeasure of Desire: The Science and the Theory, and Ethics of Sexual Orientation, critically examined the research of two major studies(Hamar and LaVay) which claimed a biological origin to homosexuality. In an interview with The Advocate, a homosexual magazine, he said, “There are serious problems with the science itself….. My training had taught me that a lot of what was being said was, well highly unscientific.” [The Advocate, Feb.1 2000,]-C.Mann, “Genes and Behavior,” Science:”Time and time again, scientists have claimed that particular genes or chromosomal regions are associated with behavioural traits, only to withdraw their findings when they were no replicated. Says Yale’s Dr. Joel Gelernter. ‘All were announced with gerat fanface; all where greeted unskeptically in the popular press; all are now in disrepute.”[1994']-If homosexuality’s cause was exclusively genetic, it would tend toward being eliminated from the gene pool because those who have it would tend not reproduce.No doubt that homosexuality is a complex issue but one factor worth noting is that as Dr.Joseph Nicolosi writes, “In 15 years, I have spoken with hundreds of homosexual men. I have never met one who said he had a loving, respectful relationship with his father.” [Preventing Homosexuality: A Parent's Guide].I’m not saying the homosexuality is a simple issue, but to say that it is ‘genetic’ is a cop out and an excuse to justify behaviour the Bible condemns. Paul how can you compare the condemnation of rock music by AOG churches to their condemnation of homosexuality? While I could see a possible reason for their stance back then given the image and nature of rock and heavy metal music the stance on homosexuality comes from the Bible. You want to twist it and find other interpretations of it to suit yourself and justify a deliberately sinful behaviour then you are going down a very dangerous path.

  49. Paul
    Posted 5 years, 9 months ago // Permalink

    Dear Kevin, having come from a former communist country, I know how easy (and tempting) it is to twist facts, statistics and half-truths to justify your own agenda. “Preventing Homosexuality”? Please… are you suggesting it is contagious? And has it ever occured to you that if the society at large was more accepting, gays would find it easier to form long term, exclusive relationships? Easy to condemn others while we have logs in or own eyes! Next you will probably claim that AIDS is God’s judgement on the infidels and gays…

  50. Kevin
    Posted 5 years, 9 months ago // Permalink

    Paul please don’t accuse me of twisting facts, stats and half truths when you’ve done nothing but try to find some sort of version of the Bible that doesn’t condemn homosexuality. The Bible is clear on where it stands but you are obviously bent on trying to find something to justify a gay lifestyle. Besides if you don’t believe me the sources of all the stats and facts are readily available. Don’t blame society for problems that arise from a lifestyle that is wrong and immoral though I’m not surprised given that gays have always tried to legitimize it by ridding themselves of any responsibility for their actions.

    And did you actually read all the facts or are you simply dismissing then as you’ve done with everything else I’ve said so far. We can agree to disagree but no one who calls themself a follower of Christ will continue to deliberately practice a homosexual lifestyle and neither will they enter the Kingdom of God.

  51. Kevin
    Posted 5 years, 9 months ago // Permalink

    Let me make a correction, a person who has accepted Christ will be accepted into His Kingdom no matter what, however my point still stands. A genuine follower of Christ will not continue to pursue a lifestyle that is sinful and condemned by God

  52. Paul
    Posted 5 years, 9 months ago // Permalink

    Kevin, we simply also have to agree to disagree on whether one who calls follower of Christ can be actively gay. I don’t see any problem here. You just use “copy and paste research” and quote mining that may be good enough at a AOG youth rally intended to stir a homophobic sentiment, but is highly inappropriate in an intelligent conversation. And the Bible is far from clear when it comes to homosexuality – or are you saying you read your Bible in the original languages? It seems to me you are relying on translations which in themselves are already an interpretation, and you are replying on your denomination’s outdated dogma.

  53. Paul
    Posted 5 years, 9 months ago // Permalink

    Kevin, only once in the Bible, in the Mosaic law, is there a prohibition of gay sex, and even then it only refers to men. Apparently God likes watching lesbian porn too (like pastor Mike!). Maybe it’s true that God is a man after all… All the other “clear words” of the Bible are not about homosexuality at all. And if you want to treat the Mosaic law literally you will have to marry your older brother’s wife if he dies so that he may have a son. And remember, don’t wear a jumper made from cotton and polyester – it’s an abomination to the Lord!

  54. Kevin
    Posted 5 years, 9 months ago // Permalink

    Paul you can twist the word of God all you want but you like all of us will have to answer for everything we’ve done and I find it ridiculous that you are basically calling yourself a christian homosexual. Just as I would find it stupid if someone said they were a christian alcoholic or christian thief. No one who has genuinely accepted Christ will continue to do this. You’re obviously so blinded by your own desires that you’ve resorted to using God’s word to justify sinful behaviour.

  55. Paul
    Posted 5 years, 9 months ago // Permalink

    Kevin, it’s best if we stop here. There’s no point discussing things with someone who doesn’t even pay attention to what the other party has to say. I NEVER called myself a Christian homosexual. I don’t twist anything either. You don’t have to be gay to defend gay rights, you don’t have to be a cow to defend animal rights and you don’t have to be black to be against slavery. If I have to answer for everything I’ve done, I’m more than happy to do so now and ready. Are you?

  56. billcnz
    Posted 5 years, 9 months ago // Permalink

    Bigotry
    =====

    Paul
    >> Thanks for your comments. Much appreciated.

    I don’t believe your sincerity, as you then go on to abuse me by “asserting my beliefs” which aren’t things I stated or believe. You persistently misquote others who disagree with you.

    >> There’s no point discussing things with someone who doesn’t even pay attention to what the other party has to say.
    You manipulator. EVERYONE has paid attention to what you have said.
    That is why they have replied.
    They have just disagreed with your opinion and you are applying the regular trick of “Disagreeing means you aren’t listening”.

    >> You admit you are a biblical literalist who believes in a male God who is intolerant, hateful, jealous and monstrous, who likes to be feared and indulges with gambling with his mate, Satan (see book of Job).

    I stated he is intolerant, but I don’t believe the rest.

    That is the abusive ploy of a BIGOT, to try and deny another their belief by falsely representing them.

    Has anyone ever done this to you?

    The attitude of Bigotry hints of a fraudulent cause, as the truth never needs to use trickery or abuse to assert itself.

  57. billcnz
    Posted 5 years, 9 months ago // Permalink

    The Lake of Fire
    ============

    >> If there is a God like the one you believe in, I would hate to be with such a God. I’d rather go in the lake of fire. At least I’d be in the company of good people! ;-)

    Sadly, you may be in the company of people that might displease you most: “Church People” who were false witnesses of Jesus Christ and may have influenced your twisted interpretation of the God of the Bible.

    Church leaders who preached some Biblical morals while secretly being involved in sodomy and adultery.
    Leaders who used titles “Pastor”, “Apostle”, “Prophet”, to intimidate, manipulate, and deceive people.
    Paedophile priests who preyed on minors they accessed through their church work.

    This blog thread starts off with Michael Guglielmucci who practiced such a double life.
    He is part of a church system (Hillsong/AOG) that was fathered by Frank Houston, finally defrocked by his own son Brian Houston for being a sodomite for 30 years.
    Kicked out the back door for playing with men and boys “back doors”.
    I wonder if any of them developed a homosexual lifestyle as a consequence of what Frank did to them?
    I wonder if any of them abandoned the Christian faith because of what Frank did to them?
    Matthew 18:6-7 But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.
    “Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to sin! Such things must come, but woe to the man through whom they come!

    Paul, you may have one thing in common with these people: No “fear of the Lord” and a tolerance of sodomy.

    Meantime, some of the people you may have affinity with now, will have reconciled with the “intolerant” God, and be in heaven. Heaven is only worth going to BECAUSE God is intolerant (in combination with being merciful for authentic repentance).
    Prov 28:13 He who conceals his sins does not prosper, but whoever confesses and renounces them finds mercy.

    >> I’d rather go in the lake of fire

    That is a negative possibility of free will.

    Be assured, God’s decision about who goes there will be JUST, because he is perfect (Holy).

    Psalm 98:9 He will judge the world in righteousness and the peoples with equity.
    Deut 32:4 He is the Rock, his works are perfect, and all his ways are just. A faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is he.
    Rev 16:5 “You are just in these judgments, you who are and who were, the Holy One, because you have so judged.

    Paul, the reckless way you speak about God is prideful.
    The “fear of the Lord” will always be an OFFENSIVE concept when PRIDE is involved.

    If you read the Bible with a prideful attitude then it may just be an irritating book.

    All sin originated from Satan being kicked out of heaven for PRIDE, and the disease spread from there through his influence.

    When a person becomes humble under God’s care, then they can have PEACE AT LAST.
    Prov 15:33The fear of the LORD teaches a man wisdom, and humility comes before honor.

    >> I don’t believe in absolute truths. I used to, and they’ve all failed and turned out to be graven idols.

    I am curious to know the circumstances of those “failures”.

  58. billcnz
    Posted 5 years, 9 months ago // Permalink

    The practices of Sodom
    ==================

    Paul:
    >> We simply awaken to our sexuality. Otherwise do you think it’s a choice?
    >> Please… are you suggesting it is contagious?
    Probably not directly. There are many reasons/excuses for sins. For homosexuality some possibilities are:

    1. Sodomised (raped) by someone at a young age (eg. in the same way that prostitutes are often previously interfered with at a young age). The Roman Catholic church has been a major instigator of sodomy and promiscuity through its unbiblical doctrine forbidding it’s priests to marry. That church paid settlements of $US 2billion in the USA alone in 2002 for sex abuses. Popes throughout the ages have been notoriously promiscuous, particularly before the Protestant Reformation – Google “Promiscuous Popes”.
    It is access to the Bible for the common man that ends the tyranny of evil church leaders, so how foolish you are Paul for disparaging literal interpretation of the Bible. The Bible is the authority of Christianity, not church leaders. The Bible came from God, not men.

    2. Psychological confusion due to poor fathering in upbringing (passive/absent fathers, dominant mothers, etc.)

    3. Potential progression from heterosexual promiscuity (unquenchable lust).

    4. Vulnerability from traumatic rejection/persecution by peers during development years.

    5. “Handed over” to homosexuality by God for DELIBERATE rebellion against the truth, as a warning to others.
    God may “hand over” by just removing restraints that he generously provides most of us (what “grace” is about).
    Hint: anyone who gets AIDS still has opportunity to at least finish their days fully reconciled to God ON HIS TERMS, so a disaster can be changed to success.

    Matthew 7:7 “Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.”

    If you deliberately SEEK DECEPTION then God may give you your hearts desire. Whose fault is that?

    Not God’s.
    “The fear of the Lord” is our responsibility towards being safe from harm.

    Brian Houston of Hillsong and like minded church leaders are deliberately seeking and promoting deception towards a gospel of money, possessions, and “worldly” indulgences, therefore they will be “handed over” by God at some stage (unless they repent prior).

    2 Cor 11:14-15 ……for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.

    “Their end” is the typical receptacle of the AIDS virus, I suppose that’s a co-incidence from the NIV translation, or maybe it was a clever inspiration by God?

    Homosexuality can not be justified by genetics because the DNA code is software that ALWAYS REJECTS DEFECTS.
    Evolution is a lie, we can not evolve forward of God’s design.
    We can only DEVOLVE backwards towards extinction if we live outside God’s laws.
    Adaptation does not prove evolution, it reveals clever design in the DNA code to enable a LIMITED degree of adjustment in response to environment.
    Same sex unions and promiscuity of any kind is REJECTED BIOLOGICALLY by the diseases they create, attract, and spread. Venereal diseases often make people infertile.

    >> Next you will probably claim that AIDS is God’s judgement on the infidels and gays…
    Indirectly maybe.
    It is a direct judgement by harmful mutations of small, invisible creatures called viruses.
    How humiliating for proud, defiant man, who denies God the creator, to be struck down by ailments such as the common cold once his immune system is disabled by Human Immunodeficiency Virus (HIV).
    The Old Testament prescribed the death penalty for promiscuity and perversion, now it is executed by the AIDS virus:

    It is the practice of sodomy and promiscuity in the homosexual community that has been the main transmitter of AIDS. Sodomy is a particularly unhygienic and dangerous practice because it mixes three compounds: semen, blood and faeces allowing mutations of new harmful viruses and spread of existing ones. Sodomy is mostly practiced between homosexual men, but in some countries it is common between men and animals.
    Men who have sex with each other, or prostitutes, or anyone else who have sex with these groups, are NOT PERMITTED to donate blood for the New Zealand blood transfusion service.

    The NZ blood transfusion service is as prejudiced and intolerant as God, when it comes to sex perversion and promiscuity.

    Freddy Mercury’s life was cut short by AIDS on 24 Nov 1991, at age 45.
    What a waste, now his music can only be played by tribute bands. He had rare talent – see Wikipedia.
    Shortly after his death, pop star Phil Collins said, “I have the greatest admiration and a lot of affection for him. But if you go around living a pretty much promiscuous life, as he did, you always run the risk of AIDS.”

    Ezekiel 18:31-32 Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, O house of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD.
    Repent and live!

    Don’t harden your heart against God:
    Prov 28:14 Blessed is the man who always fears the LORD, but he who hardens his heart falls into trouble.

    There’s still time to change the road you’re on:
    Isaiah 55:6 Seek the LORD while he may be found; call on him while he is near.

  59. Paul
    Posted 5 years, 9 months ago // Permalink

    billcnz,
    You are wasting your time and mine, and I don’t think I will grant you the pleasure of having any more of. You may continue to believe that the earth is flat, rests on pilars and leviathans swarm the seas and breathe fire (the Bible teaches you so!), but it will never change the fact that evolution is a fact and that it is happening all the time (Michael Dowd, author of “Thank God for Evolution” and a pentecostal pastor doesn’t have a problem with it either!). Perhaps you are the one who considers himself a (suppressed) homosexual Christian, because I never called myself that (prove otherwise!). You may even believe that all the Jews deserved the Holocaust because of their deeds, but I am not scared of your Mostergod of hate – I simply believe in a different one, God of Love. The Bible allows for a multitude of contradictory beliefs, you seem to have chose the weird ones, but you have every right to do so – we have freedom of speech and religion. As you see, I am not intolerant of other people’s beliefs, no matter how irrational, so calling me a bigot you miss the point again. Be blessed.

  60. Sammy
    Posted 5 years, 3 months ago // Permalink

    If Mike G. was a fraud he would never have had the courage to come clean and stop the lie he was living. If only the rest of us would allow God to truly be Lord of our lives like Mike has by his confession. So many men, I believe over 80%, christian or otherwise; are caught in the same trap Mike was, fortunately for him, God measures the heart, and HE IS THE JUDGE not us. God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise.

  61. Paul
    Posted 5 years, 3 months ago // Permalink

    Sammy – if the media are to be believed (as well as some other sources), he did not come out. He was exposed.

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  1. You’re all I need Nothing is impossible for You Nothing is impossible for You Nothing is impossible for You You hold my world in Your hands Good reads for further thought: http://2minuteswithgod.blogspot.com/2008/08/mike-guglielmucci.htmlhttp://www.alistercameron.com/2008/08/24/mike-guglielmucci-todd-bentley-repentance-starts-with-the-leaders/Labels: fireplace

  2. [...] his post “Mike Guglielmucci, Todd Bentley… Repentance Starts with Leaders“, Alister Cameron publishes a message by a widely respected American pastor, Dutch [...]

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